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Carlson: Is it the religion? That's what outsiders always ask about Islam. Is it the religion itself that causes extremism? Do you think it is?

Manji: You know, there seems to be something inherent within Islam that lends itself to more literalism and over a longer period of time. Now, I know simply by saying that, there will be howls of outrage. Many people say to me, Irshad, it's not the trouble with Islam. It's the trouble with Muslims. To them I say what is a religion if not the collective behavior of its practitioners? And then there are those that say say it's not religion, it's culture. This has more credence with me, more elements of truth. Because I point out in the book that tribalism within Arab culture is part of the reason why there is such an antipathy to decent within Islam. People like to believe that Islam was born in the Arabian peninsula and that it is an eminently multi-cultural worldwide of faith. On the surface that may be true.

Carlson: It is true.

Manji: It is true. The reality is -- and this is why I'm getting deeper than just the surface -- that Arab cultural imperialism has been the biggest problem within Islam for hundreds upon hundreds of years. All told, what I'm driving at in the book is that the trouble with Islam today is that literalism has gone mainstream. I realize that this is a very sweeping statement. I also realize and I say I in the book, that every religion has its share of literalists. God knows. The difference is, however, that in Islam today, even moderate Muslims embrace the Koran uncritically as the final and, therefore, perfect manifesto of god's will. Because the problem within Islam, literalism began hundreds of years before the Saudi kingdom came into existence. One of the reasons for this problem is that when the Arab Muslim empire fell to nonArabs to Ottomans and so forth, Arabs basically felt that the only undisputed glory they had left, that they could call their own with the founding moment of Islam. After all, here was this faith founded in the peninsula of Arabia for the Arab people. And this led to a defensive fixation, an insular fixation, with the founding moment. So that nobody could get as close to god spiritually or geographically than the Arabs could.

Carlson: What of Indonesians or Iranians, for that matter, nonArab Muslims think of this, and why isn't there a revolt against it?

Manji: It's so interesting. Because the vast majority of Muslims in the world, 80% are nonArabs. Only 20% are Arabs. So why is it we are told as Muslims that the only legitimate language in which we can communicate with god, with Allah, is in Arabic.

Manji: We had a reformation on this some time ago.

Manji: Even though the Koran says that no matter which way you turn, east or west, there is the face of god, why are we told that the only direction in which we can pray, when we do pray, is the direction of Mecca? If you want to, good for you. God bless you. But why are we told that is the only direction? These among many more examples I give in the book indicate that there is a desert Islam at work that sadly has become mainstream in Islam today.

Carlson: If I hear you correctly you're equating literalism with extremism, or saying that literalism, inevitably, leads to extremism, which says that there's something about the text that's extreme.

Manji: No, there's nothing about the text that's extreme. The Koran, like the Bible, like the Torah, contains all kinds of passages that are pro-diversity, anti-diversity, pro-women, anti-women. The beauty of pointing that out is that is that masogynist, anti-female interpretations are not inevitable, not at all. But then why is it, Tucker, that we so overwhelmingly see anti-female interpretations at work? Let's bring it back to Arab culture. You may remember that in January of 2004, Hamas in Gaza issued a statement -- statement saying that women will be eligible to become suicide bombers. Woohoo! But only one kind of woman. She who has dishonored. The idea that by taking her life and that of others with her she will be lifting the moral stain she has left on a wider group of people. OK. Some Muslims who are now watching today will say that's fine, Irshad. Well, it's not so fine but we get you. Why are you equating this with religion? I'm not. The good news is that honor which is a part of Arab culture is in theory different from Islam, which is a faith. OK. So I'm arguing --

Carlson: Of course.

Manji: These two things need to be straighted if we're going to have a hope in heck of reforming Islam. But the reality -- and this is what I have to challenge my fellow mainstream listeners to own up to. The reality is that the way in which Islam has been propagated for the last several hundred years, honor has been enmeshed in the way Islam has been --

Carlson: After 9/11, President Bush gets up and says Islam is peace. The religion is a fine, admirable religion and that will become clear in the ensuing years as we fight against the extremists who perverted the message of the true faith. You and about four other people are the only people in those three years since, I've heard say anything like you're saying. Where is the Muslim Martin Luther?

Manji: You're asking the questions I ask in the book. So I actually don't have an answer for you. I'm asking in the book, where are the voices who are in positions of authority? It's one thing to say Islam means peace, Islam is love. Great, but how do you turn that mantra into reality? What are we as Muslims, and as leaders in particular, actually doing? To show the rest of the world that we are not monolithic? This is the great challenge. I offer it to -- I offer it respectfully but I offer it firmly.

Carlson: What's the problem with the Jews? That's not just an Arab thing. I've been in nonArab countries where at dinner some otherwise normal person will ramble on about how the Jews are demonic and all that. Is there something intrinsic to Islam that is anti-semitic?

Manji: I wish I had the bulletpoint and bulletproof answer to that.

Carlson: Where does it come from?

Manji: It doesn't come from the Koran itself in this sense. I pointed out earlier that the Koran contains passages that are friendly to women and passages that are Carlson:ile to women just like the Bible and the Torah. The same can be said about the Koran's take on religious pluralism. Certainly the Koran states that Muslims ought not to take Jews and Christians as friends, lest we become one of them. There's talk of slaughtering and slavery and even subjecting nonMuslims, in particular Jews, to a special tax as a tribute to their Muslim conquerors. Some of this stuff, Tucker, is truly scalding, and I'm intellectually honest enough to acknowledge that. At the same time, however, the Koran heaps praise on the prophet Abraham, grandfather of the three monotheisms. Christ's mother Mary get several positive mentions. The Koran does something inherently un-Islamic, it defines Jesus as the messiah, and more than once. Get this, speaking of Jews, the Koran refers to the Jews as the exaulted nation. As a matter of fact, in two separate passages, the Koran vindicates the sovereign role of Jews in the holy land, something you're never going to hear from any --

Carlson: I haven't heard that.

Manji: Given all this contradiction, why do we see again such an embrace of anti-Jewish interpretations? I bring it back and I'm sorry to be a broken record about this. But I bring it back to the way in which Arab culture has trumped Islam, that in tribalism in Arabia, there is a dynamic of vendetta and countervendetta and there is conspiracy at every turn. This is something from which many Arabs and I would argue now many Muslims have to grow out of this uncritical imitation of the seventh century. One point I'm reminded to make about all of this stuff. I was in Gaza about 2 1/2 years ago and I interviewed, among others, Dr. Ayad Saraj, who is the the founder of the Mental Health Community Clinic. He said to me something fascinating, I've got the video clip on my Web site. He said we Muslims love to believe that Islam is so powerful. But you know what's more powerful? Arab culture. He said Islam was introduced to move Arabs beyond this culture of tribalism. What has actually happened is that Islam has not conquered Arab culture. Arab culture has conquered Islam.

Carlson: One final obvious question. You've written this book, you're publicly identified as a lesbian. You're pretty heavy in your critique of the religion. Are you worried?

Manji: Probably I should be. But the reality is, I'm not. Not because there aren't death threats. There have been plenty of death threats and there will continue to be. The latest spate -- and it is a spate -- in response to the Pakistani Dirks of my book. I remember one of the death threats said I am now a woman writer who is subject to death. So in many ways, my sexual orientation is just icing on the cake. The fact that I'm a woman and that I live in the west is more offensive. But the reality is, I remain a Muslim because, here's the thing. I am faithful enough in my Islam to take seriously that verse in the Koran which states, Believers, conduct yourselves with justice and bear true witness before god, even if it be against yourselves, your parents, or your family. In that sense, I'm keeping the faith and I also recognize that Islam has the capacity to move us beyond tribalism. I invite my fellow Muslims to join me.

Carlson: I hope you win.

Manji: And I think, given what I'm hearing from young Muslims around the world, in your lifetime and mine, we'll get there.

Carlson: Thank you.

Manji: Peace.

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